30 Golds Are Back!

Perhaps the best .17 caliber coyote bullet of all time…

Many .17 shooters have long considered the 30 gr. Gold that Todd Kindler of the Woodchuck Den used to make as “the” bullet for coyote with large capacity .17’s.  The combination of high BC, accuracy and terminal performance on coyote may be unmatched.  My .17 Predator, which has been my main squeeze on stand since I had it built over a dozen years ago, was built around the 30 gr. Gold. And I have had great success with that rifle and the 30 Gold on coyote over the years, accounting for over 500 coyote killed.

But a few years ago, Todd stopped making his fantastic bullets. He sold his dies and since then, there have been no more 30 Golds. Guys regularly come on the predator hunting forums asking where to get them, to be met with the same sad answer every time, that the 30 Gold had been relegated to “unobtanium” status.

Until, that is, just a few weeks ago. The dies along with a supply of J4 jackets of the correct length for making the 30 Golds are back in production and the 30 Gold is available again!

Kindler and Texas Golds
Kindler and Texas Golds

Montana Mize, of Hamilton, Texas now owns the original dies, along with a good supply of the long .17 J4 jackets needed to make the 30 Golds and is in full production.  Note – Montana is not the guy who originally bought the dies from Todd Kindler.  So, what you may have heard about the guy that bought them originally, does not apply to the new owner!

What are these new Golds called, anyway?

I wasn’t sure what to call the new Golds. Because the maker is in Texas, I started calling them Texas Golds. But when the bullets arrived, the sender was listed as Montana Mize. So I thought maybe they should be called Montana Golds?  I asked Montana what he calls them.  He said that the name Texas Golds seems to have stuck, so Texas Golds it is!

Spot check, weight, ogive, length, diameter…

The day the new bullets arrived I sat down to compare the new Golds to the old Woodchuck Den Golds. I noted some differences in ogive length, weight and diameter. See chart below for details.

Measurements comparing new and old 30 Golds
Measurements comparing new and old 30 Golds

I chose just ten random bullets from my box of old stock WCD 30 Golds and ten bullets from the new box of Texas Golds. As you can see in the chart above, the new Golds weigh about .4 grain more than the old ones. And the ogives are about .011 longer. And, the diameter is about .0004 smaller than the old ones too.

Taking comparator measurements of ogive
Taking comparator measurements of ogive

Note too, that for each dimension I measured, the new Golds have more variation, especially in weight and ogive length.

Texas 30 Golds on the right, WCD 30 Golds on the left
Texas 30 Golds on the right, WCD 30 Golds on the left

How do they shoot?

Enough of the measuring though, yesterday morning I was able to get out and shoot some groups.

I have only one rifle I intend to use these bullets in, so all I wanted to know is how these new bullets shoot in my .17 Predator compared to the old ones. With just under 1,000 rounds through the bore and about .055 of throat erosion, this rifle has definitely lost a step and no longer has the guilt edged accuracy it had when new. About a year ago I added a Thunder Beast Ultra 7 6.5 suppressor to the rifle, all groups were shot suppressed. Scope is a Leupold 4.5-14×40.

For test loads I used the same lot of brass, primers and powder and loaded up the Texas Golds and some of the old Golds with the same load I have been using since the rifle was new. Because the ogives of the new Golds are .010 longer than the old Golds I have, to keep the relationship to the lands the same, I adjusted the seating die .010 deeper on the new Golds. Comparator measurements of the two after loading are within .001 of each other.

New 30 Golds loaded in .17 Predator cases, ready to shoot
New 30 Golds loaded in .17 Predator cases, ready to shoot

At this point, I’ll mention that I have adjusted the seating depth of my load out over the years to follow the lands. But, I’m out of neck. There is well less than a caliber of bullet shank in the neck. They are as long as I’m comfortable making them for field use. Being able to seat the new ones .010 deeper didn’t hurt my feelings one bit.

I shot the groups off of a folding table, not a solid concrete bench. After many years shooting off this table I’m confident that I can shoot consistently “almost” as good off of it as a solid bench. But, in truth, it really is only “almost” as good. A solid bench likely would have sucked the groups up just a tiny bit.

Conditions were a bit foggy, enough to cause some degree of difficulty in aiming on a few shots. And because it was only about 25 degrees out and I was shooting kind of fast, I had some mirage coming off the barrel and suppressor.

I have never been a really good group shooter either. Competent, but no more than competent.

.17 Predator on folding table ready to shoot some groups
.17 Predator on folding table ready to shoot some groups

So, I tell you all of this in order to emphasize that these groups should not be construed in any way, shape or form, as an attempt to find the accuracy potential of these bullets. I am absolutely certain that a more accurate rifle, a better group shooter, a more solid bench will yield smaller groups.  I’m not a bench rest shooter and my .17 Predator is a sporter weight hunting rifle, not a benchrest rifle.

The only thing I was trying to find out, was how these bullets shoot compared to the old bullets, in this particular hunting rifle. Using the exact same load. Nothing more!

So let’s look at the groups.

I shot only two, five shot groups of each bullet. Alternating, first WCD, then Texas, WCD and Texas. As you can see, the old WCD Golds turned in groups of .455 and .445, for a .450 average. The Texas Golds turned in groups of .585 and .455 for a .520 average.  The old .17 Predator is barely hanging on to 1/2 MOA by the skin of its teeth…

Groups comparing the new 30 Golds to the old ones
Groups comparing the new 30 Golds to the old ones

Two groups of each, honestly, isn’t enough data to prove anything. But, with this rifle, since new, I have striven to keep paper punching and load work to an absolute minimum. After a little bit of load work when new, this rifle has scarcely touched paper in the years since, except for very occasional zero checks. It’s for killing coyote, plain pure and simple. The barrel life on a hot rod like the .17 Predator is short. I intend that when this barrel is done, it’s short life will have been well lived, devoted to killing coyote. This one has .055 erosion already and definitely isn’t as accurate as it once was.

My Thoughts On The New Golds VS. The Original WCD Golds

So, as I said, I was only interested in seeing how the new bullets shot, with the exact same load, compared to the new ones. In this short test, they didn’t shoot quite as good.  But pretty close!

Frankly, given the variations in ogive, weight and diameter measured, I didn’t expect them to shoot as well as the old ones. But they shot pretty well, just the same.

A couple more things worth mentioning. The new Golds had the same POI as the old ones – a good thing if I want to switch between them. Also, after shooting the groups, I strapped the Magnetospeed on and ran four rounds of each bullet for chrony data. The eight shots formed a nice round group measuring .560, not too shabby and again showing exactly the same POI.

The chrony data was interesting, as the new bullets averaged 40 fps slower than the old ones. The differences in weight and diameter perhaps?

More shooting would certainly be more definitive. I’ll leave it up to you the reader to draw your own conclusions, or lack of conclusion. I’ve made mine.

Do they shoot good enough? For coyote hunting, I’d certainly say so. And, let’s not forget, this is a new bullet maker. What I see in the dimensional and group data, is room for improvement.  After talking to Montana again this morning, it sounds like he was already way ahead of me on this – he mentioned tightening up his process and dimensions before I even brought it up. I’m betting any bullets he ships today, are even better than the ones tested here.  I’ll be buying more of them, for sure.

DAA with beloved .17 Predator and 14 dead coyotes
DAA with beloved .17 Predator and 14 dead coyotes

Speaking of coyote hunting… That’s another test, for another day. How well will these new Texas Golds kill, compared to the old ones. Personally, given that I know they are made from the same jackets, core material and from the same dies, I am highly confident that they’ll kill just the same. I’ll report back on that, when I’ve killed enough coyote with them to form a solid conclusion but I’m expecting them to perform superbly on called coyote, just like the originals.

To order these new 30 Golds, give Montana a call at 254-784-9533.  He ships fast!  He has other weight Golds besides the 30s and says he’ll have .20s online soon as well.  If there is a particular .20 caliber bullet you wish you could have, it might be worth putting a bug in his ear.  I did <grin>.


30 Golds are back!
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30 Golds are back!
The .17 caliber 30 Gold bullet from the Woodchuck Den has been considered the best .17 caliber coyote bullet made. But they have not been available for several years. Now, a new maker is using the same dies and the same jackets. I compare the new Golds to the old Golds to see how they measure and shoot.
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25 thoughts on “30 Golds Are Back!”

    1. My pleasure Matt! Just hope I can get a few coyotes with them before I hang it up for the season.

      – Dave

  1. Good write-up Dave. I am looking forward to trying a 23 grain bullet in my 17hh. Thanks for the insights. — Burt

    1. Sounds good Burt. I think Montana mentioned he was going to be working with the 23s in a .17HH himself. I might have to give them a try in my Mach IV.

  2. Dave,
    Excellent information and article. You have really helped Montana with your evaluations to improve his process and quality of future bullets which will help all of us.

    Thank you

  3. Montana is a good friend and he is truly trying to build a better product for us all. He’s in this for the long haul.
    Next step may be something in a 20 caliber.

    1. I’d like to see a really sleek, tough, 38 gr. boat tail in .20 caliber. Something to kill coyote as well or better than the Berger 35 but with much better BC!

  4. Great write up Dave. Good to see the Golds are back. I’ve only got a couple boxes of the Kindler left for my 17 Tactical. I will definitely be placing an order.

    I’m also very interested in the .20’s too. A 35-38 grain hollow point with a good B.C will be great for my .204 Ruger.

    BTW Great Blog Dave…. Really fun to read your stuff you are a wealth of knowledge……

  5. Thanks for the heads up!

    In the process of loading my last 134 WD 27 BTs over 25 grains of Varget in the .17 Remington.

    9″ twist good enough for 30s?

    By the way that Leupold 4.5-14x in my opinion is the ideal western scope .
    I always enjoy your posts.

  6. Nice write up on the Golds——still shooting Nagels but I’m going to grab some of these to try.

  7. I can’t get a hold of montana for the 30 gold’s in .17 or the wink wink 38 gr ? -204’s I got this (((we are unable to complete you call at this time )))
    soooo ,sounds good just not accepting calls at this time or ???
    I need some bullets bad please Help Joe 754-784-9533 is the correct # Right Left a text to no answer !

    1. Joseph, I haven’t talked to him for a few months, but the number I have starts with 254, not 754.

  8. Since the 30 grainers were s hard to come by, I contacted Dynamic Research Technologies (Dustin Worrell- president) about making the 30 grainers. He is researching to see if they can make the 17 caliber bullets and make it pay. what they need is input to see if there is enough interest. I’m into saving pelts. I use the DRT’s in my wife’s .223 with the 39 grainers. To date she has only blew one enlarged hole in one coyote, thus turning a $50.00 coyote into a $10.00 coyote. The design of the DRT’s is to penetrate and then explode like a grenade with a metallic mist, killing instantly, and doing no pelt damage. My fur buyer loves these bullets because it takes the sewing time out of processing furs. He recommends them to all his .224 caliber fur harvesters. I believe this would make an excellent .17 caliber fur friendly bullet. Call DRT and let them know if you would be interested in a .17 cal 30 grn. bullet. Phone them at (660) 448-2212 or contact them at drtammo.com.

  9. Does Montana have a website for his bullets or is it phone call only? I wanted to see what all he had.

    1. Montana’s number is in the post. I haven’t talked to him in a long time, but have heard from others the 30’s are all gone and won’t be available again. I have not talked to him myself to verify that though.

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